Time for tuning
 

So.. the bodykit is in place, the car is registered and road legal, so it's time to tune.
Don't want to cause hassle by fitting a DET engine (hassle at the MOT) so figured I'd see what we can do with the ET engine first.
The goal is 200-250 bhp... so I would appreciate a dialouge about whether this is possible/viable.... and if not, what we might see for power from the following mods.

Port the head.
Hotter camshaft (is this necessary?)
T25
Intercooler (probably volvo 740)
cometic head gasket (or what do you reckon?)
0,9 - 1,2 bar boost....
Larger injectors and remap as required.

I don't want to start making special exhaust manifolds and inlets, if it goes that far then I will fit a decent engine that is good for 300+ bhp.

200sx S13/14(?) gearbox and clutch already fitted... she spins 32kmh per 1000rpm... with 205/45-16 pirelli p-zero tyres... (192kmh **119mph** @ 6000rpm in 5th)

I guess with the larger A032 205/50-16's she will have more top speed, just wondering if the S13/14 gearboxes have lower gearing....

Anyway.... open for discussion, tips and advice about the above tuning plan...

Also interested in any ET tuning bits anyone might have knocking around....

Conkers.

if your aim is a flywheel figure the ideas you have will get you there. You probably wont see more than 225bhp at the flywheel with an s13 t25 as a guideline.I would say that if your interested in fitting larger injectors then its probably worth you fitting a t28 turbo instead. You shouldnt need to fit a cometic gasket,Genuine Nissan ones do the job and as long as the car is setup right they shouldnt blow. A cometic one is nice for piece of mind or if you want to lower the cr, I guess you can decide on that once you have ported the head.:D

the uk hotter cams, Piper and Autosprint, make the engine more lively at 5.5k on imho, certainly stops that 'hitting an acceleration wall' feeling where the cars acceleration feels to drop off even though it will happily rev out to 6,5-7 no problem. may be more noticeable in my car as it weighs almost half what an s12 does tho:D
S13/14 boxes are essentially the same externally bar the bell housings, but the internal ratios are different as is the oil system design.
the uk and overseas boxes have different ratios so check what you have (also turbo and non turbo cars have different ratios, not all of which we get here).
The best box is the later s14 box, s14a here in uk as this has a centre trap door system to stop oil surge. The s12/13/14 boxes are all from the same family and as they get newer they get fewer oil holes in the centre steel plate between the alloy bell and alloy tail sections. The oil tends to all run into the tail casing under hard accelertaion and starve the bearings gears synchros etc. the s14a trap door stops oil rushing to the tail housing but allows it to flow back under braking. im sure i have pics somwhere of the differences if you need them.
Check which you have, you can always block off some of the oil ways with JB weld and make a trap door if its necessary for your usage.
The s14 (uk) boxes are closer ratios, with a fair bit taller first, then slightly taller 2nd and 3rd. 4ths the same but 5th is shorter (giving marginally lower top speed).
again check what the ratios are available where you are and work out which gearset suits your diff ratio/usage and tyre rolling radius.
CNH

Yeah I think the cam is worth it, especially in conjunction with other mods, especially porting. CNHSS1 is right, these engines do drop off power at the top end, so its really just a case of trying to move the torque band higher. My max power was at 6.1k which meant revving it up to 6.5k essential. First of all I kept hitting the rev limiter by mistake as the power just didn't drop off at all, so it was a case of watching the revs to change gear before it cut in.

I managed to squeeze 240hp on standard management and injectors with a rising rate pressure regulator.

For the sake of the intercooler, I used a volvo intercooler, but I would seriously try to get one of the jap style front mounts that can easily be bought off of ebay for £125.

Pulled the head off the car tonight and the low compression on the tester after the sparkplug meltdown is a valve with a piece missing... ooops! and we were doing donuts in the parking lot before driving it in to pull the head off.... I'd say she was about 10 minutes from dropping the valve completely... I'll get pictures....
The pistons have 4 cutouts for valves... are all ca18et engines like this, or is it a det bottom end already perhaps.... ?
I also noticed a piece missing off the top of one piston, detonation, only it doesn't look recent as I cant see any damage anywhere else.....but strange things are afoot (at the circle K) I think the muppet I bought the car off has already been in the engine rooting around... I mean, he was up for fitting a 200sx gearbox and clutch... and it looks like it has a T25 on it already now we can actually see it....
So I guess I am looking for a CA18ET engine... or may be willing to risk the grief from the mot guys by fitting a DET motor. If I go DET, what sort of power are they good for without getting into cams and silly money... are they really good for 300 at the flywheel just with some remapping, injectors and such?

Or might just pull the bottom end apart and do it properly... get the head sorted and save the mot headaches....

I found a DET for sale for 300 quid and it's local to me here in sweden, but it has done 80 000miles... so not sure if it is worth buying an engine which is probably as bad as the one we are now pulling apart.....

Come on.... give me some sound advice guys!

Catch you later..

Conkers

the pictures:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_rI1PS9fSkZ0/...0/IMG_7052.JPG


http://bp3.blogger.com/_rI1PS9fSkZ0/...0/IMG_7063.JPG

http://bp0.blogger.com/_rI1PS9fSkZ0/...0/IMG_7066.JPG

That piston is fucked. Is it on no.4 cylinder? Defo from detonation probably where its been top speeded.

The cut outs in the pistons are correct. Its just that Nissan didnt make 2 sets of pistons for 1&4 and 2&3 so they made a universal piston with cutouts for any position.

A DET is a much better breathing engine. It will see 300bhp at the flywheel on completely standard parts with exception of the turbo. You will hit a brick wall on the ET at around 230bhp, where after it will require some serious attention.

This pic may sway you, its a comparison of DET inlet to ET inlet ports:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...i/DSCN1262.jpg

The dead piston is on number 1... although it does have a "4" stamped on the top... hence why I suspect that a muppet has been in there previously....

I guess I am just about swayed then..... 300 easy horses... and an engine in the local area, what will a DET give with a ported head (cos thats what I do) and a T25 running at 0,7-0,9 boost? 240-250ish????

I'll give it some thought today.... and see where we end up tonight...

Thanks for the tips 30psi... (BTW whats your name)

Mike.

Just spoke to another local lad who said he has some wiseco forged pistons for a DET, will these work in the ET engine.... probably not I am guessing.... but just incase.... it could be an option.... maybe just get new pistons and fix my ET head... unless a DET engine turns up for the right money.

Hmmmmmmmm......

I know what advice I would be giving a customer, but when it's your own car/money and your own hassle at next years mot.... or if some poor sod buys it and then cant mot it next year... I'll be feeling pretty bad.... and wondering if the extra 60 horseys were worth the hassle....

Might just flip a coin on this one...

Mike.

Heads for a new head...
Tails for a new bottom end!

i think the pistons will go in, as mine where je pistons for the 200sx, but you may need the 200sx rods as well, tbh i'd put the wiseco pistons in the ca18det engine, with the det rods it should be good for 370bhp, as long as you some sort of fuel map out.possibly 444cc injectors.

Tempting... how much will the 200sx gearbox and clutch take though... and as most of the people who will be driving it on the track ahve no experience... I think 250bhp will be plenty for them.... although for sure 350bhp will make it competitive also... rather than just being a trainer...

I am sure that I'll be left with little or no choice in the end.. as ET's are like hens teeth over here... so DET is looking promising....

Mike.

I put this up on the wanted section as well... if anyone can help me out or point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

I require the following for my 1988 S12 Ca18ET:

Oil pump (complete with front cover)
Front Pulley for poly-v belts, (alternator and power steering pump)
Cambelt drive pulley and belt guide washer thingy (for crank) it got mashed trying to remove it (as did the front cover and oil pump...!

Set of standard bearings, and full gasket set.

Starter motor

(Not in the wanted section) What is the code number for the cam I should be getting for this 7½ valve ET engine....

I picked up some standard ET pistons tonight, the kiddie wanted silly money for the wiseco pistons and they had some nasty signs of battle damage so I walked away from them... so I'll be building it for 220bhp... standard internals, balanced and a hotter cam, ported head T25 intercooler...



Mail me if you can help out:

mike (at) racing-green (dot) com

Thanks,

Mike

Had to cough up for a new oil pump as cant wait any longer to get this engine built. Getting the starter reconditioned. We have all the bearings, gaskets and rings now. Just need head bolts and a cam.
Anyone know where I can buy uprated head bolts and a hotter camshaft? I need these parts asap as the engine build will start on monday.... i know I know.....

Mike.

The hotter cam is simply a regrind. I'm sure you'll know somewhere in sweden to get it reground. Its 268 degs, dead centre is 110 degs, and 1mm extra lift

I'm pretty certain that ARP don't stock bolts for the CA18ET. However you may be able to buy heavy duty M10x1.5 bolts and have them cut to length. Remember that one of the head bolts is about 1-2" longer than the other 9

Just get a new bolts from nissan or new AYUSA bolts would be ok. It should be around 50-60 euro( here in poland )
And what is the max lift and lift time and a stock s12 cam??

I spoke to an old friend of mine Jan at Enem in sweden and the cam is already in the post. He is going to reprofile it and it will be ready next week.
I just told him what I wanted the cam to do and he will fit a profile on it that will work.... nothing fancy. So thats a result.

I'll get some new bolts from our bolt supplier here then.... or just use the old ones.

Now for a new question....

instead of a T25 I have been offered a TD04... apparently better... but will it fit?

Mike.

TD04 will fit but with a new exhaust mainfold. If the head bolts were used ones u can use them. I the head was ones of i sugest u get new ones.

Why do I need a new exhaust manifold, the bolt fittings on the Saab TD04 and T25 looked identical, I compared the two, will need to rotate the compressor housing 90 degrees or so, but not sure about the exhaust elbow.
But size wise, they looked similar and most important for me wanting to retain the standard exhaust manifold the bolt fitting was the same.
Tell me if I have missed something...

I have both a T25 and a TD04 to choose from, both from saab... the TD04 is more modern technology and I am assured by my mapping guy that it will spool up a little faster and keep the boost longer...

But with 2 weeks to get this baby ready... all advice and opinions are both welcome and appreciated.

Mike.

The only TD04 i saw was from volvo and the bolt patern was diferent as well as downpipe had to be custom made. And Yes TD04 spools nice but it can make a bit less power then the T28.

As we are making a gentle engine I dont think we are worried about total power figures, we will be happy with 200bhp +/-20bhp with minimal spool up time.

The Saab td04 I have and the saab t25 have the same manifold pattern, but I guess we will find out more next week.

Mike.

sorry for the late reply, only just re-visited the thread. wiseco DET pistons are what i use in my engine, but with forged s13 rods. they will fit with std s12 rods (gudgeon pin fit is a pain though), but not a lot of point as std s12 rods will be a limiting factor long before the pistons are. Std s13 DET rods are a fair bit thicker, pretty cheap over here (£20 for 4 i think i paid for a mates engine) and will mean you have a pretty bullet proof bottom end for 300-350 with forgied pistons and DET rods.
i realise my reply is soemwhat late, but may help you in the future.

I'll have the cam back today, hopefully... and we settled on a T25 from a saab as we got one for free from a mate, had to turn the center housing to align the oil drain, and also the inlet housing to give us a chance of plumbing it... volvo 740 intercooler is ordered too... rising rate fuel regulator, ported head, balanced bottom end, got some 12,9 socket caps from a bolt supplier, as nobody could get us head bolts in a hurry, hope they hold up, remap is booked for june 22nd so fingers crossed that we make the first drift event on june 29th... and that nothing goes bang before (during or after) then.....

Thanks for all your help...

Conk.

The engine is back together now, putting it in tomorrow.

The enem cam grind was a Z10 M20, and timed up nicely without requiring a vernier pulley.

I had te injectors cleaned and tested, they will flow 289cc per minute, which att 100% will provide fuel enough (@ 3,5bar) for 205bhp, theoretically. So might have to up the fuel pressure to 4bar, which will be good for 200bhp at 85% duty cycle.

I guess the next step wold be some larger injectors...? WHat are they from and how much do they cost...? This engine build is skyrocketing in cost.... he he...

I'll let ya know when she is mapped..... what the final outcome is....

Conk.,

The next size up is 370cc injectors from a s13 ca18det engine, the 16v version of the s12 engine. Ive probably got some somewhere i could send you if you have trouble getting hold of them over your way

Whats the spec of the cam regrind?

The inlet profile is called Z10 its a bmw sport profile, and the exhaust is M20 from the BMW m20 engine apparently, he also separated the lobes as much as possible, actual valve lift is 9,3mm inlet and 10,2 exhaust (don't quote me) I don't have the build figures here. Havn't bothered measuring duration and such, set it up so that inlet valve on #1 has 1,4mm of lift at TDC.
Enem is a well respected and trustworthy company, so I just let him chose the profiles to my useage area.
I told him we were looking for 200bhp +/-20 a useable powerband from 4000-7000rpm, ported head, T25, intercooler and around 1bar of boost... I also sent him your reccomendation and this is what he sent back, all reground and tuftrided... if you want to pick hs brians now or in the future he is easy to deal with, just look up ENEM in sweden, the guy to talk to is Jan Carnebourn.

Fitting the engine today, so late tonight or tomorrow we should get a tune out of it.

Conk.

Pukka.. how much do you want for the injectors?

You have pm..

Conk.

il pm you details tonight as im off to work now. I dont want anything for them. there just working spares.

Its ok Conkers, I was more wondering out of interest, just purely as a comparison to the Piper cam. Don't have one of these engines anymore so I won't contact the chap. Be good to see what results you can get.

I managed 240bhp on the standard S12 injectors with increased fuel pressure. S13 injectors are a perfect upgrade. will you use something like an SAFC to allow it to run the larger injectors or remap the ECU?

what fuel pressure and boost were you running to see 240bhp on your et engine?

the car is apparently on the rollers today being mapped, no news from them, but no news is good news at a time like this..

I am currently in the uk doing to family visiting thing..... (painting and decorating for mum, while she takes the kids to london and various establishments that serve cream teas)

Anyway... I'll try to hook up with Pukka... to get those injectors... just incase the boggo ones are not up to it... I suppose if they run 4,5 bar of fuel press then they might flow enough for 220bhp.....

OK.... time to run...

later..

Mike

pm recieved and sent

I had a rising rate regulator on mine so the fuel pressure increased alot as it broke into boost. Don't know what the fuel pressure was though at full boost, probably 5.5bar at a guess.

Worth mentioning thats 5.5 bar including the 1bar enrichment from the boost pressure, so 4.5bar at 0 bar manifold pressure.

ok... that makes sense.. mine is also rising rate so just hope that standard fuel pump is up to the job.....

Mike

I had a walbro 8 bar pump in mine. Hopefully the standard pump can achieve the required pressure and flow.

I'd change it though when you get a chance.

The rolling road guy couldn't get any contact with the box.... so he couldn't map it. But as we need it running this weekend for a meeting he made sure it is safe, I have not picked it up yet, but it is getting 200bhp. Not a bad start, he reckons it is good for 300 ish, but I told him the internals are only good for 250 and I am happy with 200 anyway. That said, it is going lean at the top end, the biggest issue right now is that it is producing too much boost, just keeps climbing and when he dumps in more fel the bost increases even more, he thinks I need to open up the wastegate as much as possible, get bigger injectors and he suggested a megasquirt box for it.... but I'll start by looking at the boost issue and aim at being able to use the engine safely up to 7000rpm.....
The turbo we used apparently is some hybrid saab T25 off a saab 9000, but it has a wastegate actuator of unknown origin, so I might try fitting a actuator off a saab 9000 again if opening up the wastegate port doesn't help.

Anyway, so far, quite chuffed... I had guessed 200bhp +/-20 so to be seeing 199.4bhp at 5500rpm and not properly mapped is quite promising....

Lets just hope I dont prang it at gatebil in sweden this weekend.

Ciao..

Mike.

update...
Changing the wastegate actuator back to original made no difference, so I ported the wastegate opening to diameter 23.5mm. This reduced the overbost to a more manageable 0,8-0,9 when running 0,6 constant.
Once at the event we coundln't find a shell station selling v-power (optimax) so used super unleaded (98) with some stp octane booster... we didn't get any knock... and the overboost issue is almost resolved, it runs 0,6bar constant and peaks at 0,7ish... sometimes it flashed up to 0,8bar but I am confident the problem is no more.... obviously something to do with the use of v-power...
Did wonder if the lower octane rating of super unleaded caused the knock sensor to cut in a back the ignition or something else that I am ashamed to admit it dont understand.

Car ran without missing a beat all weekend, did 150 miles at full chat... got razzed by every saab volvo bmw and audi on the straights, but they all had 300+ bhp... but got them back under braking and outhandled everything except the porsches on slicks....

When it came to trying my hand at drifting.... that was a different kettle of fish altogether... I am tempted to blame it on having too little power.. but I suspect it was too much grip on the yokohama A032R tyres... it would slide when provoked, but then a lack of power (for these tyres) would cause theslide to diminish and it would grip enough to throw yer false teeth out!
Better n the rain, but it was hard to hold in a drift, it was either a gentle (perfect for rallying) tail out corner attitude, but if you oversteeped it by one degree then she went around and I couldn't get enough lock on quick enough....
It's going to be a challenge to get the hang of going sideways on purpose.... I have spent the last 20 years trying to keep it straight and being smooth....

Once I get the det injectors from pukka, I'll get it on the rolling road again and see if we can get her up to 250bhp...

I'll see if there are any pictures on gatebil.com...

Babble over....

Conk.

have you fitted steering rack spacers yet? cos the extra lock they give will help you catch drifts without spinning out so much....also you may have to get used to letting go of the wheel to get the lock on quick enough;)

Now thats interesting... rack spacers? What are they?
I was playing on the straihts with letting the wheel go to spin back to center... scared the poop out of me but it was effective... so I guess that is tip of the day then....
Brilliant... drifting is a new technique for me and a challenge... I am looking forward to learning this....

Mike.

Edited in:
Why didnt I see this thread sooner..
http://www.nissansilvia.co.uk/vbb/sh...light=steering

I'll get right on it....

Any other tips... like what track settings to you run, toe in toe out front and rear....

Thanks..... this is a top tip.

I have some of these spacers if you need them.

Thanks for the offer mate, the ones on driftworks look like good old spring washers... How thick are the ones you have? Hardly worth the postage costs if I can just spin some up on the lathe... or is there something I am overlooking?

Mike.

They're probably 3-4mm thick.

The ones I have aren't spring washers though. I got them with the tein rods and ball joints but I'm not interested in the extra lock.

If you have a lathe go for it though. Will take a few minutes a piece to spin up