CA18DET bottom end query...
 

As per title,my question is fairly simple i hope and anybody who has done a full rebuild of a CA18DET should be able to say yes or no! I am building a CA18ET but using uprated parts from a DET as the bottom ends and basically the same,however the conrods differ somewhat. The standard ET rods have a hole in the bigend bearing and a hole in the casting of the big end of the rod with a restrictor to produce the cooling oil mist for the bottom of the pistons,however the new forged rods i have for the DET do not have this. Although the design looks like the shape of the side of the rod may serves as means of shooting oil to the underside of the piston for cooling and gudjon (sp?!) pin lubrication. My question is simple after i have waffled on setting the premise, do CA18DET engines have a seperate oil squirter facilities or not?

hope that makes sense!

any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Ben
____

im fairly sure the DET has oil squirters in the block itself, some machine companys should be able to fit your block with the squirters, i know Silvia Engineering used to advertise it, but they dont exist no more.

im afraid thats about all i can answer, but like buses, another member will be along soon, that im sure will have better knowledge of this.

:D

Not sure if this is the CA18DET or the SR20DET it dont say on the description, and i have seen neither.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/c...lsquirters.jpg

And this below is taken from the S13 CA18DET workshop manual.

http://www.umpkin.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/squirter.jpg

Yes the det 100% has oil squirters at the bottom of the cylinders.
I have rebuilt one.

Thanks for your help guys.

Ben

i had a number of ET blocks machined to take DET oil squirters, will dig out the pics

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/b8286203.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/02190023.jpg

custom steel crank brace

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/02190013.jpg

Det rods are thicker in section and use a larger diameter gudgeon pin too, so you cant use DET rods (or aftermarket versions) with ET pistons, has to be DET spec pistons too. Win, win really, better pistons and stroger rods.
crank and big end bearings are the same so will fit.

Cheers for the info mate, i have wossner forged pistons and apex forged rods, all DET spec. DET crank too, but that was coz the ET one got a little damaged when trying to remove an uber stuck crank gear! ACL race bearings to boot, should hope fully be a reliable and powerful setup.

good parts choice :)

the ET and DET cranks are different though. The 'nose' of the DET crank is bigger than the ET version so wont fit the oil pump.
The DET oil pump would have to be fitted along with the sump. Personally i think the DET sumps pants compared to the ET sump, it has loadsa louvres in the windage plate (to allow oil to drain back from head quicker i guess) but that does mean that on hard cornering/braking/acceleration the oil can move away from the pickup. Personally its why i think DETs have a reputation for 'chocolate' bigends, whereas the ET doesnt (and has same block and bearing design).The pickup is slightly different on the DET which means it has to come thru the plate at an angle, which means the plates not as tight a fit around the pickuup either.

also the bottom crank pulley for the timing belt wont fit, although if you ask 30PSI on here nicely, im sure he has a modified pulley for soem beer tokens;)

DET sump pan

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...S1/detsump.jpg

ET sump pan

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/P6260006.jpg

DET crank brace fouls ET sump, so ET sump needs a little 'percussive maintenance' with a ball pein hammer to clear the DET crank brace.

So if the nose is a big bigger, and i already have the crank and indeed the oil pump...(but as they say assumption is the mother of all fuck ups!) would it be possible to turn the nose down to suit the ET oil pump and indeed the crank gear?surely as you stated a little gentle persuasion with a cornish screwdriver the ET sump can be made to fit? as by your pics the windage plate looks weak in the DET!!was trying to retain as much of the ET engine as possible to keep the car loosely as intended. and the last thing i am wanting is to build this engine and have it fail due to DET death rattle!

ha, just when you think your getting near to completing your engine suddenly things start going backwards!!You wouldnt happen to have any DET squirters lying around would you? thinking thats the better way to go as i have had block bored to suit new pistons! and also dont wanna try and drill holes in new rods!

cheers for you help with this mate, saves me a lot of agro in the long run knowing all these things now!!

Ben

i have to use ETs as the race regs dont allow changing the engine to a different type. Id say the ET sump is well up to the job. I can get 1.95G acceleration and not get surge :cool:
i have tried the DET oil pump into a bare ET block ages ago and it fits. You would then need to use the DET crank and oil pump (which you have), and either the DET sump (modify it to look like an ET one internally!) or modify an ET sump. I havent tried fitting a DET sump and oil pump into an ET, so its from memory/guess, but i reckon its the forward part around the oil pump thats different, so the ET one might not be easy to mod.
You will need to use the DET pickup with a DET pump too which is at a differnt angle (not central like the ET) so would foul the ET sump anyway.

Using the DETs crank brace is a good idea, certainly cheaper than the billet steel ones i had made (though not as nice;)) but you need to cut/grind away near the front and rear corners to clear the ET sump, and even then a little little 'persuasion' with a no.5. 'Fu** stick' is needed to the sump corners (not enough to distort it though.

Personally it may be easier to buy a spare ET crank, bound to be someone on here with one or else let me know and i'll ask a few mates if they have any, and flog your good DET crank (pretty rare these days!) and oil pump to someone with an S13. That should fund the new ET oil pump and then no need to machine a bottom timing belt pulley or mod the sump etc.
Still worthwhile using a modified crank brace from a DET though, and DET main bearing cap bolts (longer than ET but same thread etc).

I think that modding the DET crank is a no go, as the nose diameter is a few millimeters different, not a few thou, and also i think you would need a new drive flat for the oil pump grinding too as i think its asmaller diameter.
If you need to know for definite, let me know, i have scrap DET and ET cranks
and oil pumps i could measure. You probably have to get the cranks re-surface hardened too or nitrided as the grinding process would eat through the cranks standard surface hardness, not worth the hassle or expense if you can find a good spare ET crank and buy a new ET oil pump.
Dont drill holes in the DET rods, it'll wreck them.

Will make a nice motor that'll be nice and strong when its finished, without the crap DET sump issues :)

EDIT: Will have a look for oil squirters but pretty sure i havent mate. someone on here or sxoc should have some though

Should have had a chat with you before getting stuff done mate, i knackered the crank so thinking a det crank would be easier to get hold of found one, and had it checked,ground and balanced and then bought bearings to suit!unfortuneatley the oil pump is for the ET so gotta real mis match going on! will stick a post on here and DW to see if i can get a decent ET crank, i imagine they are even rarer! i didnt wanna drill the rods but it was another idea thrown into the mix as a possible solution. will stick with the ET sump as i dont like the oil surge ideas and im pretty impressed with the 1.95 G acceleration! thats why i wanna stay 8v, prefer the torque curve! last time mine was on the rollers it was 183bhp and 195ftlbs torque (at 4,500rpm as i had a dodgy coil!) whats yours kicking out?

I do have a spare ET engine basically complete but didnt wanna rip it apart just to rob the crank, as it is still possible that i could encounter the same issues with a sticky crank gears!

yeah, they produce some good torque, mine made 325ft/lbs :).

i will ask around our guys for a spare ET crank, sure someone will have one :D

S13 Eaters is the daddy on the figures, mines only 282hp/266lb/ft but thats only with a responsive Turbo Technics T28 hybrid @ 15psi. The ET is much underrated and overlooked by the DET. ive got some decent bits left if you fancy them? the turbo, Canadian fwd facing manifold and modified head and cam etc

a good DET crank with bearings would sell on sxoc a piece of pi55 ;)

if you could ask around for a crank that would be ace. Might be interested in the cam mate, how different is it to standard?im running a custom four branch top mount manifold and a IHI hybrid roller bearing TD05. and have an eight spark head which has been ported and polished.Bit concerned that i wont get the right monies for the crank and bearings, i mean the bearings were in the region of £150!!might get an ET crank ground to suit the bearings. Yours is still kicking out brave for the boost your running, im hoping to be running a bit more then 15psi, is that regs or reliability making you run that boost? seems i might have managed to find some squirters. the machining done on your blocks to take them was done on a milling machine im guessing, dont suppose you would have any specs, measurements for where they were drilled? i mean the pics help but bit hard to scale from there! are you running a modified cam in yours? just wondering if thats why your torque curve is less then the BHP at the top end.

sorry, i want to flog the cam and head complete really, but Gripo on here has a brand new Piper cam for sale cheap.
power delivery has always been more importnat to me than max numbers, the way it comes on boost and the shape of the curve makes as much difference to the times as the actual bhp. In the end 15psi came from the most i could get at last dyno session on the external wastegate spring and boostsolenoid. Always planned to run more boost, but have decided to rebuild the car from the ground up following a pretty hefty shunt and go in a different direction on the engine (current class means i can run any engine). Had planned to run approx 21-23psi which i reckon would have seen around 315bhp.

Cams make a lot of difference to power delivery, as does the inlet manifold. Std cam strangles breathing over 5k rpm, and allow you can make the same figures as with a hotter cam, you have to shove loads more boost doen its neck which does nothing for the EGTs or reliability.
Inlet manifold again strangles things. The fwd facing type are much larger volume and allow shorter and neater intercooler pipe runs. I saw about 15bhp and 25lb/ft of torque when i added my current manifold. See pics in project section and for sale section.

the blocks were all machined by a friend who has a precision engineering firm. I gave him a DET block to use as a basis. Gotta be careful as you have to machine thru into the main oil gallery and close to other critical areas. I paid about £100 per block, but that was 5 years ago.

one of our guys has a crank from an engine that the HG blew on so hes gonna pull it out and have a look at the condition of it. Will keep ya posted.

i had a tubular top mount manifold, and again frees up breathing at higher boost (1bar+) but if not used with a cam as well it may be a bit disappointing. The tubulars make the turbo come on boost about 250+rpm later, so without the ability to exploit the benefits of the extra breathing of the tubular manifold (bigger turbo, better cam and inlet manifold imho), the worth of the manifold is compromised. Does make turbo access much better though!

Fair enough on the cam mate, and had some interest on the crank on sxoc! win! how much for the forward facing manifold? your right the standard inlet plenums are poo and make for hideous piping angles! it looks like the guy who wants the crank doesnt want the bearings, so maybe another for sale thread in a mo!! best to get bearings to suit the crank rather then grind the crank to suit the bearings! you mentioned a rebuild, dont need any race bearings?ha ha! is the cam Gripo has for sale similar profile to yours? only ask as i dont want an all or nothing engine, would rather have smooth delivery as you said have driven cammed turbos before and you spend half your time waiting then the other half holding on for your life! dont get me wrong i like a bit of a kick in the back but i want the car to be useable other then when im giving it beans!!

thread showing the manifold for sale

http://www.nissansilvia.co.uk/vbb/sh...?t=4757&page=4

Gripos cam sale thread
http://www.nissansilvia.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=4730

sorry, your bearings wont help me with this rebuild.

from memory the stock cam is something like 248deg, 8.8 lift and the Piper is 268 and 10.5mm or similar. the std cams so soft that almost as soon as the engine starts to make good power from the turbo, the cam starts to restrict with little lift and low duration. Your call, but personally without a decent cam the numbers might be there but the power wont be able to be exploited imho.

I run the Autosprint cam currently, in fact mine was the first one that Geoff created using my engine spec as the basis. In real terms the Piper or Autosprint will give the improved performance in the range of boosted rpm.

Guess this is still available, what cc are the injectors mate? i currently have 440cc not sure on the maximum hp they will handle with a 255 pump, just checking if the injectors are needed also. is the price delivered?

injectors are 444cc. So long as your pumps up to it and you have an adjustable fuel pressure reg, they should see 300-320hp.
cheers
Craig

what engine management are you going to run?

currently have emanage,but im in the midst of doing a deal with FC Tuning for a prototype NIStune solution,all being well it will be a plug and play fully mappable but based on the stock s12 ecu.will keep you posted on that if you like.

Ah, thats fine, just worried with all the hardware mods you were gonna try and use the std clockwork s12 ecu lol.

a plug'n'play would open up the possibilities for lots of guys on here and the scimitar boys too.
I run an Emerald ecu at the mo

Well as soon as i get mine sorted out and mapped, i will chat with Steve and maybe get him to start a thread on here mods permitting. yhpm regarding inlet.
think i might need bigger injectors eventually if there really only gonna hit 320bhp, would rather not run them at maximum all the time!

mate of mine has two spare ET cranks, will pm his details

Injectors should run to 350ish, using rule of thumb, inj size x 4 divided by 5 = approx bhp, but 320s safe as houses. Run a higher baseline pressure (needs good pump like bosch 044 and decent regulator) and you can go higher safely (ive seen it done anyway).

well i might get it mapped on the injectors i have and then upgrade them to a slightly larger size for piece of mind at a later date!(depending on the out put!). With any luck i might actually get my engine built and mapped before my next trip to the ring! and finally might manage to get under the 10min barrier with the confidence that the car wont die if i push it hard!!Does Gripo frequent this forum much? have PM'd him regarding his cam and no response, realise your not his keeper :D but you seem to know most people on here thought it was worth the ask!

oh, and have a walbro 255lph (or equivalent) fuel pmp and am just looking into fuel pressure regulators now.

contact Pukka on here (or phone Pukka at GT developments, see his trader ad in traders section) as he might have a phone number for Gripo.

im not familiar with walbros as they are in-tank mainly and i cant use them, but most nissan guys seem to rate them. a stable furl pressure reg will help with mapping too, doesnt have to be bling, ex-cossie std one or lancia, or ebay, whatever rows your boat. Think mines an ex-cossie aftermarket one iirc

Yeh i went with the in tank option as it ment no tank change an the gauge etc still works. yeh looking into fuel pressure regulators, found a few possibles.guess your pretty well under the kosh with race rules etc.

Stay with the standard fuel pressure reg, not worth it in my opinion.

Theres a how to on this site for fitting the walbro in an s12, I wrote it many years ago