|
CA20ET LPG project help
Hi fellas my first post after a long wait to get on these forums which are 8v
rich and always a mystery since there have been some issues with member approval in the past stopping me from reading the important info here. I would like to build a punchy LPG turbo CA and have the following in mind so far for the build (most parts purchased): CA20e block with undecided pistons. CD20e crankshaft suits ca18det oil pump (to be lightened and re-balanced) Prepped Z22 149.5mm c-c rods to suit 53mm BE of CD crank (lightened, shaved each side, shot peened and balanced 562gsm each) ORC single plate fly/clutch setup suits CD20 8 bolt flange type Garrett T28BB disco Chasing 200hp atw with excellent of response no lag if possible. 8v head modded Camshaft (piper?) undecided Im chasing torque with big midrange & 7000rpm redline so 8v is likely. Thinking of using heatproof jet coated stock exhaust manifold with T28BB and equal length short runners with custom plenum and mid mounted TB. I was thinking of welding up the inlet ports and exhaust valve and run motorbike sparkplugs that allow me to have more meat on inlet ports to be able to raise the angle and increase the size without worrying about sealing issues on bolt up flange area. Also the LPG doesnt really need 2 plugs per chamber as it burns really well with 1, so welding up exhaust plug (all Australian 8v heads are 8 plug heads here) and reshaping the chamber to increase swirl from inlet across where the exhaust plug side would be which interferes with the swirl usually and causes turbulence that sends mixture more onto the cylinder walls. Also thinking of heatproof coating the chambers after porting and reshaping to help keep temps a little lower using LPG. Intercooler size is not decided but would like to keep inlet temps decent. Also what ARP bolts should I run? as the ca20 block bolts are thinner not as deep into the block and not an off the shelve item (searched). Also thinking I might not need a crank girdle or main ladder brace as used to stiffen the ca18det block? or best use one? if so it will have to be custom made to suit the 88mm stroke and counterweights. Im not interested in the 16v head they are 10kg heavier than the 8v and I like the space Im saving in the engine bay of my datsun b10 will look more nostalgic too with chrome rocker a-la-s13eater |
hiya,
re block crank brace, i havent had any made for a few years. The easiest option is using the DET cast crank brace. It nearly fits, just two front corners need trimming off as it catches the 8v sump and stops it fitting down to the block neatly. 10 mins with a grinder will do the trick. The machined ones i had made were lighter and took up less space in the sump than the DET version. re cam, id also look at the Autosprint cam. when i built the 8v engine for my racer, i had Geoff create a cam profile. I gave him my old Piper cam and he worked from there. His creation doesnt need a vernier cam pulley (which i also had made at the time), but had a trick assymetric profile, giving a curved side and almost flat side to the cam lobe, a trick from his old ford tuning days. Certainly worked REALLY well, and is now pretty much the standard fit for all the guys that sprint and hillclimb or circuit race using the 8v engine. he wont tell you the lift and duration, but i didnt care as it brought the numbers on the dyno and massively improved the breathing over 5k, so i never bothered measuring it. they used to cost about £100 as a regrind although the scimitar club have done a few group buys of 10 cams and got down to be 80quid each plus return postage which is a bargain. im not familiar with the rods you mention, but the 8v rods are the weak point once you run more boost, revs and forged pistons. they are like tooth picks! ive bent a few. id look at aftermarket or DET rods (bigger gudgeon little end pin so you will need different pistons). I used one of the Canadian spec CA20E inlet manifolds, gave a few bhp over stock manifold but a fair hike in torque at same boost. Its a better design than the stock one and the more develeoped your engine becomes the more the benefits. The stock exh manifold will improve torque to a point as its runners are short and bores small, but ultimately be restrictive when you are looking at 250+hp imho. I made a tubular manifold and that ran 282hp/266lbft at 18psi boost on a low lag T28 custom Turbo Technics turbo. To be honest, i should have changed the wastegate sprimg and had remapped because i think 22psi would have seen 320hp and another hike in torque. one think i would say is the head design is crap, really poor. Cleaning up the ports and radiusing them to try and reduce the 90 deg bend from port to valve is important, but its always going to be a problem. S13 Eater had an 8v head done which was pretty extreme, but again its the overall design tahts bad--you cant polish a turd as they say! |
with regards to head studs, S13 Eater looked at getting ARP to make some iirc, but personally i used brand new std Nissan ones. Some people use them over and over again, but i fitted new ones each time head was off--your call.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Any of these for sale anywhere that someone no longer needs? Quote:
Any links to the s13eater head work? |
i think the cost to get just one crank brace made again would be too high, the plate size bought in, required them made in 3s. if anyone else is interested, then thats fine of course.
i will post up some pics of my exh manifold and Canadian inlet manifold. Exhaust is tubular not log, although another scimitar racer built a nice log manifold to take a top mount T28 from a Pulsar a friend chopped the plenum off a stock inlet manifold and added a fwd facing 'box', will sort a pic. Id use at least 4mm thick alloy though as the pulses will work harden and fracture thinner material. S13 Eater will be along with links to his work on ETs im sure, real pioneer :cool: |
verniers i had made
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/01070005.jpg CNC'd lightened flywheels http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...01010051-1.jpg Canadian spec CA20E inlet http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/CIMG1990.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/CIMG1990.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/01060043.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/01060042.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/fe8524cb.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/51a15b2f.jpg ET 8v block machined to take DET piston oil squirters (just see at bottom of bores http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/b8286203.jpg tubular exh manifold on the dyno http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1/b02bdf89.jpg |
mates old fabricated log manifold top mount for a pulsar T3
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/CNHSS1/mani3.jpg |
haha, how well did that work!?
|
very well actually. To be honest, with a forced induction, low tech 8v headed engine, a lot of the theory is cobblers in practice imho. That manifold with decent mapping (that car also ran emerald ecu mapped by the legendary Dave Walker :cool:) ran really well :)
it was a laggy setup, but then the Pulsar T3 is known to be laggy when fitted to DETs or SRs as well. but being a tart i went tubular which was a lot more hassle :rolleyes: but did work well in the end. For up to 250hp i think the runners were too big on mine, should have been 1/4" smaller diameter for improved spool |
I like the angles to try and direct the flow to the flange :D
|
yep, i hear ya, but then then gas has to go through 90deg from valve to exh port before it gets to the exh manifold, so its not like a less than perfect theory manifold is the only design issue.
anyway, perfect world tubulars the way to go imho, but its a lot of work as i found out and has a lot of potential for the F*ck Up Fairy to visit, whereas the K.I.S.S. approach of using a stock manifold or fabricating a log manifold is simpler and does work albeit potentially not as well as the tubular if done correctly http://www.boostedk20.com/forums/sho...bular-Manifold hopefully the pics are of use to the OP, even if theyve given you a chuckle nedge... |
hey, if it works it works! as you say, there's alot of theory out that but few have the balls and/or facilities to test it properly. besides, i can't really comment - my knowledge is firmly rooted in n/a engines, i know sod all about proper turbo tuning :P
|
Thank you for your pics and vast knowledge on this overseen engine.
Looks like it was a perfect engine in that beast why did you change your mind on running it? I like the oil piston squirters I was going to ask if you did that mod as its upposed to help with cooling slugs and overall reliability especially on the small ends. I really like the fact it was designed as the PLAZMA or something for it ability to be lightweight and powerful. Of course the head could have been better but for the hp and torque I am chasing its cheaper and lighter than most engines available cheaply. The 8v head is 9-10 kg lighter than the twin cam head and leavers heaps of room in the engine bay. If I go for the stock ex manifold could it achieve big torque and decent hp with 200cc extra (1997cc) or should I go for extra capacity tube ex manifold like that square looking contraption :D Any idea what that tube square manifold made ? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a274/CNHSS1/mani3.jpg |
Oil squirters lubricate small ends and cool underside of piston crowns. This reduces chances of det. In the case of small ends, they tend to fail through overheating of pistons so its a two fold win :-)
Im no expect on the stock Nissan manifold, bu im sure people on here regularly see 225hp and above without issue. The log type is probably too big volume for response and torque for your setup I will email my mate Stew and see what it made, seem to remember 220ish but could be wrong. Could you not use a DET block as a basis? You get the piston squirters and crank brace as std. Use an ET oil pump sump your CA20 crank. Whats the piston size on your CA20? |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The full counterweight cd20 crank Ive got only accepts the ca18det oil pump and Ill be using either 85 or 86 mm pistons first have to do some sonic testing and x-raying of the bores. Id prefer 85mm for extra wall thickness. |
have you pics of the crank you are using? is it from the diesel?
youve got me wondering now :D maybe i need to start and buid, a new motor again! re the piston squirters, second hand ones can be had for £20 per set, no problem. i have pics of the macining needed to modify an ET block, needs a flat land machining and then break through into main oil gallery for oil supply. with the ET & DET blocks they dont take much more than 84mm bore and even then if the machine shops a bit dodgy and not centred the bores properly they can break through the bore walls and weep coolant :eek: i didnt realise the cA20 blocks had such thick walls. again any pics would be useful. where are you based by the way? |
craig, was'nt the walker scimmy a 2lt ?
|
Yeah at some point, although they blew a number lol. Based on UkCa20 with forgies and rods by Oselli Engineering. In its latter years it was back on 1800 blocks due to easier avaialability. When they sold the car on, it was based on a CA18ET as the new owner promptly grenaded the engine!:rolleyes:
|
Datsober
I put the word around re crank braces and one of the guys i sold one to sti has it unused. I will get him to contact you Craig |
Yes its the diesel crank this is the one I bought they have more if you ask them & only 60euro each!!! beats the tomei stroker BS! Only prob was poor packaging they wrapped them in newspaper in an oversized box instead of just wrapping them in rolled up cardboard so Im a bit worried about hairline cracks etc. Youd think they would make a better effort for being German and me buying 2 of them. The price was excluding freight of course.
http://www.japanautoteile.de/parts/p...2&cat=0&page=1 I will get the info and pics of the ca20det that 2 peeps have done and one in particular on the aussie forums raced in an s12 racecar which he took to 86.5mm which is quite crazy but the longer rod provision due to the taller deck height puts less stress on the bores also. There is a Norwegian or Fin on the US forums that is building a CD20DET which is a heavy block but almost a copy of the 4g63T engine just without the balance shafts and very tall 230mm block compared to 223.45mm ca20e and 204.45-65mm ca18det. sounds great about the spacer plate! (hope he can post to my destination australia and perhaps take paypal?) love the ca20det manifold workaround using that nice looking laser or waterjet cut flange very spiffy! Here is the CA21det using cd20 block and ca18det 4 port head http://forums.nicoclub.com/ca21det-build-t550380.html here is a crankshaft comparo ca20 on left and FCW CD20 on right http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/o...T/IMAG0225.jpg |
any info would be great, its wetting my appetite again!
any links to the forums too would be useful. Are you interested in a CA20 fwd facing manifold? if so, i know another guy thats selling one, if it hasnt already sold? Craig |
Found it! there is a bit of info in alot of his post just not all in one spot...
Candellan is the man to speak to he did 2 versions of the motor one with stock thin spaghetti ca20e rods and the other with the mitsubishi 4g63 150mm rods or close to that length. He was revving to 6500rpm with the stock prepped italian noodle rods but surely could go more but he wanted a reliable beast and did quite well compared to his upgraded sr20det. http://club-s12.org/retro4/index.php?topic=14046.0 http://club-s12.org/retro4/index.php...0651#msg310651 http://club-s12.org/retro4/index.php...4802#msg274802 Is the exhaust manifold on the FWD turbo different a little more forward or all the same? pretty much want a lighter inlet manifold custom made as I have some ideas Id like to implement for lpg using a clean lightweight mitsubishi diesel equal length manifold. |
Anyone know which uk cars the CA20 came in?
Also did we get the cd20 diesel in anything, car or van? Or did europe? |
did'nt the bluebird have the 20ltr diesel in it craig ?
|
Dunno, my knowledge of the other engines is pi55 poor :o
Will see what i can google re bluebirds though, cheers for the tip off :cool: |
Craig. here is the proper link with pics for the ca20det
http://club-s12.org/retro4/index.php...985&hl=CA20DET |
datsober
ok, so now youve wetted my appetite and ive been looking at bloody nissan diesels on google, wiki and ebay lol. few questions have you pics of the diesel rods? are they beefy enough to run big power? dont fancy the guy that used shot peened CA20 versions, they are too weedy! also have you pics of the CA20 and CD20 sumps please? i can see some scrapyard hunting soon and a garage full of more old engine bits! did the guy contact you re teh crank brace? cheers Craig |
rod pics are here but I think they are too long for the ca20e 223.5 mm block as the cd20 is 228mm so would need 5mm shorter piston which would mean you need 25mm pistons big bore custom hayabusas.
http://forums.nicoclub.com/ca21det-build-t550380.html dont have the cd20 engine just the ca16,8 & 20 but the sump on the ca20e looks like this one, a little deeper etc. will try and get a pic this week sometime http://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-Used-86-...-/190256803607 http://www.soshinusa.com/STC-Ebay/Ni...nza-CA20-2.png here are some nice goodies have a looky at the turbo exhaust manifold adaptor would that improve a stocky ca18et one? http://www.flipsidecustoms.com/?p=213 got some pics of the sump from my ca20e will post soon |
Under the dark den of sin managed to get it visible enough for my old brick sized decade old digital camera
http://s12silvia.com/community/index...&attach_id=847 http://s12silvia.com/community/index...&attach_id=848 http://s12silvia.com/community/index...&attach_id=847 http://s12silvia.com/community/index...&attach_id=848 |
Just got word from Tommy on US forum the CD20 rods are 140mm c-c due to the beef'd up slugs for diesel oomph which makes them replicas of Ld28 rods only slighly thinner at the big ends.
Ive calculated the Z22e 149.5mm rods are a better choice for the ca20e block using stock det pistons. |
it all seems a lot of hassle for only 200bhp at the wheels mate, or is it that you just want to do something different ?.
|
Its not the 200hp atw that really interests me but great linear torque & excellent response, maybe I dont need the cd20 FCWC with the ladder brace the stocky ca20 NCWC will suffice but 2 liters with low boost & excellent curve to 7.5K rpm. LPG is just cheap here & rids pollution gear which suits an old car with hidden wiring clean tidy engine bay etc. If I make more hp grand but just been conservative as only using fatory log exhaust manifold with an adaptor like this one.
http://www.flipsidecustoms.com/wp-co...82-600x400.jpg http://www.flipsidecustoms.com/wp-co...82-600x400.jpg Any chance there are pics around of your record setting ET cylinder head? this is the one area that concerns me. |
I would agree that 200is a low target, i reckon the bigger capacity would help spool though, so a bigger than stock turbo but say 1bar, should start to boost at 3k and pll like a train to 7.2k, but i reckon it was see nearer to 250hp with the 8v head. Is not all about the figures though, looking at some of the dyno plots, theres a fair chunk more torque low down so the delivery will be better.
The benefits would be even better with tye 16v head, summat like a GT2871r with 2L capacity would be awesome, 375+ with a lovely wide band. I fancy collating the bits for a ca20/cd20 hybrid over next 6months, just to learn as much as anything. There seems a lot of differences betwwen the UK primera and van/serena/largo variants so i need to do some breakers yard detective work. Does seem a lot of faffing about when your FJs making 600-700hp though Shaun |
no sorry mate, i never took any pics of the 8 valve head, it did make 325lbs / ft though.it made 305bhp, but the cam belt was 2 teeth retarded at the time, my mistake, it would have made more bhp and possibly less torque if set correct, i sold it soon after, so i never got to see its full potential.
|
Quote:
|
Maybe Im a little conservative in those figures, Im not sure the stock cast manifold would alloy the t28bb to spool properly to make more but would love 240-250hp yet prefer 100lbs from a low 2000rpm rpm then peaking to 280lbs. More like low hp high torque WRC turbo engines of current.
Im purely staying away from the 4 port head I have due to extra 10kg, less room in my bay and low torque ability compared to the 8v. The FJ is one of my favorite Nissan engines and i would have one hands down in a 240z or s12 even s13 over any heavier six or complicated sr20det. There is even a few ka24de headed L series down under that are perhaps a tad lighter and more compact up top due to the small angle design head that interest me but compared to the little CA the L series is quite long unless alot of money is spent on a simplex compact timing case with CAS ignition and side fed water pump. Especially when the QR25DE can be fitted with a modded FCW SR20DE crank for revvy 2.3 hybrid much lighter but perhaps the ugliest looking engine nissan ever made :trout |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 05:56. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.