Track handling

[smoker]

Hi everyone just wondered what your thoughts were on standard S12 handling. I know i'm the worst driver in the world but a recent track day left me a bit disapointed.Car didn't really inspire confidence through twisty sections of track and just didnt feel planted to the road. Felt a bit wallowy like i was floating over rather than gripping the road with not enough feel through the steering. Couldn't really chuck it into corners like i wanted to. I could leave caterhams and lotus's elise's on the straight's but couldn't carry any speed through the corners. Is there any cheap mods?. I have allready fitted kyb rear shocks and new bushes all around which helped alot . Would ATF in the front shocks be a good move ?. Are green stuff pads any good brakes were smoking after 20 mins . I dont want an all out racer with a spine shattering ride just something that I can drive with confidence. or maybe I just need more practice and a few lessons

[JackieFan]

What tyres are you running? did you check the pressures before you went out on track? did you check them when you came back in?

When you changed the suspension bushes did you change the Steering rack ones?

Have you had your alignment checked?

Green Stuff are ok for fast road use (although to be fair I'm going back a while since I used a set in anger). Brother in law has some in his Z4 and they seem to do the job well enough last time I had a play in it. Not sure they are quite up to snuff for prolonged track abuse as they do the Red Stuff for that.

What ever you do a pretty standard S12 is never going to hold it's own against Caterhams, Lotus' and such in the bends, got to compare eggs with eggs. That said leaving them behind in a straight line in no mean feat either!

It's not the worst handling car in the world but I do know what you mean about feeling a little disconnected from the drive, unfortunately that is probably more down to the compromises made to keep the day to day driving more pleasant....... and it's some 20 years old!

Pound for pound the best "performance" mod you can ever make is to get some proper tuition. It stays with you no matter what car you jump in and helps you understand what you can change to make the car better. Someone told me once that unless their can lap within 2 10ths of the same lap time everytime, then they always look at the organic matter between the seat and the steering wheel before changing any car setup parameters. That's a bit extreme for trackday fun but the theory is sound. You'll get more enjoyment out of learning to drive a car better than having to constantly change things/spend money on it to make up for driving shortfalls.

Hope some of that makes sense and you didn't nod off before the end

[PukkaSilvia]

Polybush the front anti roll bar bushes,- or replace with new originals
Get some stiffer springs all round with reduced height of at least 35mm.
Run a 50 sidewall profile tyre at the most. toyo 205-50-15 tyres will work well,
Replace your front dampers If you have not already
Fit a front strutt brace
.

[smoker]

Originally Posted by Pukka

Polybush the front anti roll bar bushes,- or replace with new originals
Get some stiffer springs all round with reduced height of at least 35mm.
Run a 50 sidewall profile tyre at the most. toyo 205-50-15 tyres will work well,
Replace your front dampers If you have not already
Fit a front strutt brace
.

Cheers pukka
I have nearly new front anti roll bar bushes from datsun but was thinking of polybushing them and the drag links.
I'm liking the idea of lower and stiffer springs , are they available of the shelf ? , was pitching diving and rolling all over like a sea trawler in a storm on the track . Will filling the shock tubes with atf fluid be ok or should i upgrade them ?
Can i keep the origonal wheels if i run the toyo 205-50-15's?

[PukkaSilvia]

yes the original wheels will be fine with those tyres.

I am trying to supply uprated springs off the shelf myself at the moment. But it will be about 4-6 weeks before i have a batch, if i get onto it pretty soon.

until then you could get some made from a custom spring company. there has been a few threads recently from others who have had them made.

I would just replace the dampers. I bet you they are nackered and that is whats giving you the floaty wandery drive. Silvias have been given a reputation for being wandery and bouncy on the suspension, as if its a factory floor. But its because most of them are all shagged and have weak dampers lol

[smoker]

Originally Posted by JackieFan

What tyres are you running? did you check the pressures before you went out on track? did you check them when you came back in?

When you changed the suspension bushes did you change the Steering rack ones?

Have you had your alignment checked?

Green Stuff are ok for fast road use (although to be fair I'm going back a while since I used a set in anger). Brother in law has some in his Z4 and they seem to do the job well enough last time I had a play in it. Not sure they are quite up to snuff for prolonged track abuse as they do the Red Stuff for that.

What ever you do a pretty standard S12 is never going to hold it's own against Caterhams, Lotus' and such in the bends, got to compare eggs with eggs. That said leaving them behind in a straight line in no mean feat either!

It's not the worst handling car in the world but I do know what you mean about feeling a little disconnected from the drive, unfortunately that is probably more down to the compromises made to keep the day to day driving more pleasant....... and it's some 20 years old!

Pound for pound the best "performance" mod you can ever make is to get some proper tuition. It stays with you no matter what car you jump in and helps you understand what you can change to make the car better. Someone told me once that unless their can lap within 2 10ths of the same lap time everytime, then they always look at the organic matter between the seat and the steering wheel before changing any car setup parameters. That's a bit extreme for trackday fun but the theory is sound. You'll get more enjoyment out of learning to drive a car better than having to constantly change things/spend money on it to make up for driving shortfalls.

Hope some of that makes sense and you didn't nod off before the end

Thanks for replying that's given me some food for thought I definitely need some proper tuition to get the most out of the car...I could probably have pushed it harder but I know I would be getting too close to the car's and my limit.

It's a manual steering rack on origonal bushes..they seemed solid enough when i changed the rack about 5 years ago ,ill check them again .Tyres are Dunlop SP2000's which are probably letting me down. I just pumped em up to 30 psi and left it at that.

Toe was checked a few years ago when i did track rod ends, maybe needs doing again

Would the red stuff pads be ok for the road too ?
Few pics


This was the best bit on the straights seeing 30 grand worth of lotus elise and subaru impretza disapear in the mirror he he . It was amusing to see how a 20 year old car with an 8 valve engine and a bit of piping from a scrapyard is quicker than modern technomotivery



Oh dear i'm probably managing about 10 mph here




Feeling like i was in the way but i was having too much fun to pull over. Caterham's superlight's must weigh about half a Silvia but seemed really slow in a straight line to me

[JackieFan]

Originally Posted by smoker

Thanks for replying that's given me some food for thought I definitely need some proper tuition to get the most out of the car...I could probably have pushed it harder but I know I would be getting too close to the car's and my limit.

Ahh, Donington Ace little track that, although I'm not a huge fan of the Fosters loop, it seems to break the flow up a bit. It's a hugely fast circuit in places so I can understand why you'd er to the side of caution there. It's nice to see someone respecting their limits, even when they think they aren't quick enough. Seen enough people delve into their bag of talent and come up empty, usually middle of the Craner Curves or McLeans!

Originally Posted by smoker

It's a manual steering rack on original bushes..they seemed solid enough when i changed the rack about 5 years ago ,ill check them again .Tyres are Dunlop SP2000's which are probably letting me down. I just pumped em up to 30 psi and left it at that.

Tyre pressures can make a big difference out on track, 30would have probably been a little high and might have caused you some problems with the grip. Once they got up to temperature they could have been closer to 40.

Check them when you go out and then as soon as you get back in. Try and keep the hot temperature around 30 and see how the car feels, you'd be surprised what difference it makes. Let the tyres cool before you drop the pressures, don't drop them too much in one go as that can be dangerous. Remember for the first couple of laps next time you are out that you need to get some heat in, so don't push too hard too soon. The best thing about trackdays is that you have plenty of time to mess about like this and still enjoy the day

Originally Posted by smoker

Toe was checked a few years ago when i did track rod ends, maybe needs doing again

If you get the lowering springs from Jon and if you remove your front Shocks you'll need to get this set back as close to standard as possible afterwards. I'd probably get it checked at least once a year anyway.

Originally Posted by smoker

Would the red stuff pads be OK for the road too ?

The green stuff should do you for now. If you find the pedal going away from you or you're getting horrific fade then look into a way of cooling the brakes, can be a simple bit of ducting that provides a cold air feed to the front of each caliper. Also worth changing/uprating your brake fluid as it behaves differently depending on age and DOT standard. I use 5.1 but you should make sure you completely bleed the system through if your changing from DOT4 or something. Someone might be able to tell you if 5.1 is a bad thing or not but its worked OK in my cars so far.



Oh and lastly....... MORE PHOTOS

[wacomuk]

Originally Posted by smoker

Tyres are Dunlop SP2000's which are probably letting me down

my misses had these tires on her s14a. They where Shite!
get some toyo R888's for your next track day, Cornering speed and braking will be greatly improved!
i had toyo t1s's on my Westfield which where great. I put R888's on the difference was amazing

[CamInHead]

y'know a tracking check alone is a complete waste of time as it ignores the rear wheels and presumes camber and castor to be correct. A full alignment isn't cheap but can help pin-point any damage, bushing wear etc and ofcourse you could add a smidge of negative camber at the front to help turn-in.