CA18DET bottom end query...

Noodle_Soup · #1 19-01-2010, 17:36

As per title,my question is fairly simple i hope and anybody who has done a full rebuild of a CA18DET should be able to say yes or no! I am building a CA18ET but using uprated parts from a DET as the bottom ends and basically the same,however the conrods differ somewhat. The standard ET rods have a hole in the bigend bearing and a hole in the casting of the big end of the rod with a restrictor to produce the cooling oil mist for the bottom of the pistons,however the new forged rods i have for the DET do not have this. Although the design looks like the shape of the side of the rod may serves as means of shooting oil to the underside of the piston for cooling and gudjon (sp?!) pin lubrication. My question is simple after i have waffled on setting the premise, do CA18DET engines have a seperate oil squirter facilities or not?

hope that makes sense!

any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Ben
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umpkin · #2 19-01-2010, 18:23

im fairly sure the DET has oil squirters in the block itself, some machine companys should be able to fit your block with the squirters, i know Silvia Engineering used to advertise it, but they dont exist no more.

im afraid thats about all i can answer, but like buses, another member will be along soon, that im sure will have better knowledge of this.

Not sure if this is the CA18DET or the SR20DET it dont say on the description, and i have seen neither.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/c...lsquirters.jpg

And this below is taken from the S13 CA18DET workshop manual.

irish s12 · #3 19-01-2010, 18:50

Yes the det 100% has oil squirters at the bottom of the cylinders.
I have rebuilt one.

Noodle_Soup · #4 19-01-2010, 19:03

Thanks for your help guys.

Ben

CNHSS1 · #5 19-01-2010, 21:30

i had a number of ET blocks machined to take DET oil squirters, will dig out the pics

custom steel crank brace

CNHSS1 · #6 21-01-2010, 12:18

Det rods are thicker in section and use a larger diameter gudgeon pin too, so you cant use DET rods (or aftermarket versions) with ET pistons, has to be DET spec pistons too. Win, win really, better pistons and stroger rods.
crank and big end bearings are the same so will fit.

Noodle_Soup · #7 21-01-2010, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNHSS1

Det rods are thicker in section and use a larger diameter gudgeon pin too, so you cant use DET rods (or aftermarket versions) with ET pistons, has to be DET spec pistons too. Win, win really, better pistons and stroger rods.
crank and big end bearings are the same so will fit.

Cheers for the info mate, i have wossner forged pistons and apex forged rods, all DET spec. DET crank too, but that was coz the ET one got a little damaged when trying to remove an uber stuck crank gear! ACL race bearings to boot, should hope fully be a reliable and powerful setup.

CNHSS1 · #8 21-01-2010, 18:23

good parts choice

the ET and DET cranks are different though. The 'nose' of the DET crank is bigger than the ET version so wont fit the oil pump.
The DET oil pump would have to be fitted along with the sump. Personally i think the DET sumps pants compared to the ET sump, it has loadsa louvres in the windage plate (to allow oil to drain back from head quicker i guess) but that does mean that on hard cornering/braking/acceleration the oil can move away from the pickup. Personally its why i think DETs have a reputation for 'chocolate' bigends, whereas the ET doesnt (and has same block and bearing design).The pickup is slightly different on the DET which means it has to come thru the plate at an angle, which means the plates not as tight a fit around the pickuup either.

also the bottom crank pulley for the timing belt wont fit, although if you ask 30PSI on here nicely, im sure he has a modified pulley for soem beer tokens

DET sump pan

ET sump pan

DET crank brace fouls ET sump, so ET sump needs a little 'percussive maintenance' with a ball pein hammer to clear the DET crank brace.

Noodle_Soup · #9 22-01-2010, 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNHSS1

good parts choice

the ET and DET cranks are different though. The 'nose' of the DET crank is bigger than the ET version so wont fit the oil pump.
The DET oil pump would have to be fitted along with the sump. Personally i think the DET sumps pants compared to the ET sump, it has loadsa louvres in the windage plate (to allow oil to drain back from head quicker i guess) but that does mean that on hard cornering/braking/acceleration the oil can move away from the pickup. Personally its why i think DETs have a reputation for 'chocolate' bigends, whereas the ET doesnt (and has same block and bearing design).The pickup is slightly different on the DET which means it has to come thru the plate at an angle, which means the plates not as tight a fit around the pickuup either.

also the bottom crank pulley for the timing belt wont fit, although if you ask 30PSI on here nicely, im sure he has a modified pulley for soem beer tokens

DET crank brace fouls ET sump, so ET sump needs a little 'percussive maintenance' with a ball pein hammer to clear the DET crank brace.

So if the nose is a big bigger, and i already have the crank and indeed the oil pump...(but as they say assumption is the mother of all fuck ups!) would it be possible to turn the nose down to suit the ET oil pump and indeed the crank gear?surely as you stated a little gentle persuasion with a cornish screwdriver the ET sump can be made to fit? as by your pics the windage plate looks weak in the DET!!was trying to retain as much of the ET engine as possible to keep the car loosely as intended. and the last thing i am wanting is to build this engine and have it fail due to DET death rattle!

ha, just when you think your getting near to completing your engine suddenly things start going backwards!!You wouldnt happen to have any DET squirters lying around would you? thinking thats the better way to go as i have had block bored to suit new pistons! and also dont wanna try and drill holes in new rods!

cheers for you help with this mate, saves me a lot of agro in the long run knowing all these things now!!

Ben

CNHSS1 · #10 22-01-2010, 17:39

i have to use ETs as the race regs dont allow changing the engine to a different type. Id say the ET sump is well up to the job. I can get 1.95G acceleration and not get surge

i have tried the DET oil pump into a bare ET block ages ago and it fits. You would then need to use the DET crank and oil pump (which you have), and either the DET sump (modify it to look like an ET one internally!) or modify an ET sump. I havent tried fitting a DET sump and oil pump into an ET, so its from memory/guess, but i reckon its the forward part around the oil pump thats different, so the ET one might not be easy to mod.
You will need to use the DET pickup with a DET pump too which is at a differnt angle (not central like the ET) so would foul the ET sump anyway.

Using the DETs crank brace is a good idea, certainly cheaper than the billet steel ones i had made (though not as nice

) but you need to cut/grind away near the front and rear corners to clear the ET sump, and even then a little little 'persuasion' with a no.5. 'Fu** stick' is needed to the sump corners (not enough to distort it though.

Personally it may be easier to buy a spare ET crank, bound to be someone on here with one or else let me know and i'll ask a few mates if they have any, and flog your good DET crank (pretty rare these days!) and oil pump to someone with an S13. That should fund the new ET oil pump and then no need to machine a bottom timing belt pulley or mod the sump etc.
Still worthwhile using a modified crank brace from a DET though, and DET main bearing cap bolts (longer than ET but same thread etc).

I think that modding the DET crank is a no go, as the nose diameter is a few millimeters different, not a few thou, and also i think you would need a new drive flat for the oil pump grinding too as i think its asmaller diameter.
If you need to know for definite, let me know, i have scrap DET and ET cranks
and oil pumps i could measure. You probably have to get the cranks re-surface hardened too or nitrided as the grinding process would eat through the cranks standard surface hardness, not worth the hassle or expense if you can find a good spare ET crank and buy a new ET oil pump.
Dont drill holes in the DET rods, it'll wreck them.

Will make a nice motor that'll be nice and strong when its finished, without the crap DET sump issues

EDIT: Will have a look for oil squirters but pretty sure i havent mate. someone on here or sxoc should have some though